Syconium
235

February 13th, 2018






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42 . by: February 5, 2018, 8:54 pm

to add another bit of nuance to the conversation purely as a learning point, there are many studies and observations of media and our actual society which point out that ratios of speaking male:speaking female characters are very skewed, and this impacts how we all understand the world and relationships around us—the most popularly cited example being that when a man speaks for 10 out of 20 minutes, he is seen as speaking equally, but a woman speaking 10 out of 20 minutes is perceived as speaking more than her fair share. these are attitudes we learn to normalize and use as a standard, and it's good for all viewers and creators to remember this once in a while to make sure what we read and create truly reflects an equitable world, and not one that "feels" equitable but is skewed.
41 . by: February 5, 2018, 8:19 pm

@39 Thirded!

Especially in this case, where conversation seems anything but distraught. We didn't even get any all-caps or crytyping or typerventilating! :P Seriously, though, I love the atmosphere of this comments section. The one and only place where I never regret scrolling down.

I have faith that this is all for a reason, especially since the female characters that we do see have been really interesting and compelling - goes for the male characters, too, of course! Since XX/Fig's isolation seems to be a character point, it might have been nice to see interactions between the courtesans. I love what we do see of their relationship. But there's the whole thing with Zach's schedule, the labor that goes into every page, the funds for comic making, that I totally understand not having that kind of filler.

In any case, if we get to see more female characters, I'd love that!
40 . by: Juna February 5, 2018, 7:21 pm

@39 Same! I wouldn't spend my time thinking about this stuff if I weren't invested in Syconium's story in the first place.

@Furrama That's about where I am wrt XX's isolation thing. So it makes her trip to the old college here and this potential mentor very exciting either way.
39 . by: February 5, 2018, 7:10 pm

i do wish every time a conversation like this came up, people wouldnt butt in and say the people talking are distraught or upset. i absolutely adore nofna and i still love syconium, but i do think this is a conversation that needs to be had! i looove the female characters, and do hope they end up playing more integral parts.
38 . by: Furrama February 5, 2018, 7:09 pm

It could be possible that men in positions of control and relevance is part of a point the comic might be making, though it depends on how it all ends and if it's ever addressed or subverted. Zack has said that sex/gender isn't super important in this society though, or at least, there's not patriarchy as we know it among the general population. But there might be a undercurrent metacommentary on our society. Maybe.

I do like how women as characters are presented when they do appear in the very least. Everyone feels real. As for XX, it does suck that she doesn't really open up or seek out real intimacy with women or men for that matter, but that had to be for the story to work. Maybe that will change in the end and all of her relationships will "blossom," heh heh.
37 . by: Juna February 5, 2018, 7:06 pm

Sorry, I meant to say "in popular media in our world"*, female characters don't get to interact with each other in nuanced, diverse ways, like @29 pointed out. It might be deliberate that XX isolated herself from the other courtesans, but still it feels like a lost opportunity.
36 . by: Juna February 5, 2018, 7:01 pm

I feel the same @29 and @30. I remember Zack mentioning that leadership in Society at large isn't patriarchal or matriarchal, in one of the past comment pages, and I take that at face value. Still, there's a pretty profound sense of difference between XX's relationships with male authority figures or equals versus female ones.

While Nofna Society doesn't appear to have very visible gender roles, much less gendered ways of dressing, Syconium's allusions to sex are largely heterosexual. It wouldn't be a huge jump to have a social distinction between the sexes, but! so far it's been left implicit.

I'm being a little verbose here, but I wanted to offer an in-universe motivation for exploring XX's interactions with other female characters. Gender is a significant form of identifying one's self with others. See for instance, XX's projection onto Sherry, or the dream where art/pixel XX briefly masquerades as her mother's voice of reason.

But, in-story reasons aside, it's just that in our world there's a dearth of nuanced relationships between women. And if XX could have more conversations like the ones she had with the courtesans after their introductions, I think it'd flesh out the arc's theme of finding selfhood and connection in an exploitative Society all the better. Acai and Smoothie were close, but there was still (the possibility of) sexual interest, and the difference of power/knowledge between them and her.
35 . by: Witticaster February 5, 2018, 5:45 pm

I love the symbolism in the conversation here. The magenta color scheme is great too. Also find it interesting how XX 'greys out' and loses her definition again when she realizes someone's watching... losing that self-confidence momentarily?

Like Furrama pointed out, the sausage party thing is a recurring trope in NofNA:
- In 10%+, we have Meander, Syncope, Rule, Polarizing, the bunny, the bunny's dad, Amanita, and... Quintet + Fiat. Meander's dad is a major plot point but his mom isn't.
- In Secretary, we have SV, NT, the teacher, TY, the other teacher, Chrysanthemum, and... Nutsedge.
- In Solar System, we have Yuri, Abe, Acheff, Hector, and... Strelka.
- Lycosa is the only story that subverts this trope wonderfully.

It's never stopped me from enjoying the stories before, but when you make a story specifically centered around sex, using gender as symbolism, suddenly people get a lot less forgiving about randomly excluding women for no logical reason.

That said, Syconium actually seems like the best out of all of them regarding women. We have XX and all her iterations, we have her mom who is integral to her development, we have the brothel girls, we have Cherry II who is looking to be a miniboss at the very least... yeah, it's still a huge sausage party, but there are still quite a few women who have influenced XX along the way.
34 . by: Seven February 5, 2018, 5:40 pm

Nobody's distraught, just having a conversation.
33 . by: February 5, 2018, 5:23 pm

I’m not sure why people are so distraught over the genders of the characters. I don’t really think it matters in the first place. Can’t we just enjoy the story?
32 . by: Furrama February 5, 2018, 5:09 pm

If one did want to put this comic through the Bechtel test (just since the subject's come up and I have thought about this before):

It takes 64 pages for XX to have a conversation with another named female character, if you don't count her mom, and even if you do that's a pretty good gap between other ladies.

It takes 18 pages for 10%+ to pass, and there's only two female characters of note.

26 for Lycosa but most of the beginning is front loaded with cars. The main character shows up on page 22 so not too bad.

Secretary... doesn't pass. At least not in the original, as far as I can find. Unless you count past mind talk from, again, mom? In which case, page 281.

20 pages for Solar System, though two of the women stay on the ground for the vast majority of the comic and then all we have is Strelka.

I like doing this with my own stories from time to time, seeing how they do and seeing if I can inject or center around more meaningful female interactions. It's way too easy to accidentally have way too many dudes and have them being the people doing most of the stuff on accident, even as a ladyperson writer. We're rather conditioned in our society to do that I think.
31 . by: Seven February 5, 2018, 4:08 pm

@25 We got two "Sevens" here?
30 . by: February 5, 2018, 2:58 pm

@29
Oh, I absolutely agree. The other female characters are basically set pieces at this point.

It's the most unrealistic aspect of the comic, to me. Women talk to each other far more often and far more readily than they'll talk to men. There's an interesting, almost cultural divide there- where many women consider sharing their emotions and supporting each other through their struggles to be a friendship related thing, many men consider it purely an expression of sexual interest.

Tenka's line of reasoning points to a broader concept, though- "why does it matter if only one important character in the story is female?" It's a trope that features very heavily in media, where you have a group of nuanced men and one woman (usually some kind of femme fatale or damsel in distress).

It's a deep seated social convention that I feel Syconium is skirting quite close to. It's unfortunate that the other girls are so uninvolved with the plot, because I feel that could alleviate it.
29 . by: February 5, 2018, 11:02 am

@28 I'd say my issue isn't the lack of female characters (there are lots), but yeah, how her agency/thoughts/growth keeps being extremely funneled through these very observant/educated/controlling men... if there could be a point to that in the end I'd be more fine with it. As it is, I wish she could have a meaningful relationship with the other women in the story. I relate to her, not to the line of suitors being a mouth-piece for her inner thought, y'know? Even the only male prostitute in the story gets to have meaningful conversations with her... so it isn't that being a prostitute hobbles the other girls. She just doesn't bridge connections to them.

It's fine if someone else doesn't feel this is an issue or feel bothered by it. I don't personally want to incite an argument about it or something, just be honest that on a personal level, it's niggling me.
28 . by: February 5, 2018, 8:53 am

@Tenka
If a comic is a sausage fest then people who do not possess sausages will struggle to relate, especially when said sausages appear to hijack the narrative from the main character, like smooth XY has been accused of.

Ideally you want it balanced to reflect real life.
27 . by: Furrama February 5, 2018, 12:35 am

Bees (and wasps) are on brand.
26 . by: February 4, 2018, 5:31 pm

lately i keep having dreams where there are suddenly several new nofna pages and i excitedly read through them... in last night's installment, fig got chased by bees and dove into a stream.
25 . by: Seven February 3, 2018, 8:59 pm

I would like to guess that the new mustelid is a Siberian Weasel, judging by the solid coloration with the dark face mask.
24 . by: February 3, 2018, 6:31 pm

NofNA is by far my most favorite interpretation of animal society.
23 . by: Taj February 3, 2018, 9:17 am

@Furrama and Magenta

I agree with your guy's identifications! I think I assumed Pomelo was a domestic ferret when she was introduced. We've had domestic cats before, so I thought it was a possibility. But I think a wild species is a little more likely.
22 . by: Furrama February 2, 2018, 8:21 pm

@Magenta That was my guess.

@Tenka There's is symbolism in regards to the sexes in this comic (XX, XY), but I think here it's just hopeful wanting. When it comes to female representation at this point in this comic, the more the merrier I think, but whatever.
21 . by: Tenka February 2, 2018, 6:21 pm

I still don't feel like it's worth being concerned about what gender everyone has, but maybe there is intended symbolism in those details and I'm missing out. I have the feeling this new musteline is a teacher, and is used to identifying arts of other people in the school.
It does seem like a lot of non-XX people recognize deep features of XX right away, but maybe that's just the nature of nature's art.
20 . by: Magenta February 2, 2018, 5:34 pm

I've always wondered whether Pomelo was a black footed ferret.

URL : http://www.wicrwaterproofing.com/Decking-Blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ferret122413web.jpg
19 . by: Furrama February 2, 2018, 4:27 pm

Looks like a polecat to me, size and marking wise. Black footed ferrets have a different shaped mask, tend to have white eyebrows inside of that dark mask, plus they have the dark arms and legs... black feet.
18 . by: Taj February 2, 2018, 3:39 pm

I'm hoping they're a black footed ferret for nerdy reasons, but I'm not nerdy enough to tell the difference between a black footed ferret and a polecat, besides like, region of origin. Speaking of, has the location Syconium takes place in been mentioned? My mind says "eastern North America" but I'm not sure where I picked up the notion.

I find Red-texts design very charming too. It would be lovely if they were a lady! #femalementorforXX2018
17 . by: Juna February 2, 2018, 3:34 pm

@12 I like that idea too, mainly because I interpreted the florist at the beginning of the arc as female. Many of the authority figures in this arc have been male, but the confirmed female ones (her mother, and Sherry) made their strongest claims on XX through her each half of her identity. So to me, it'd be all the more thematically relevant if the florist and this polecat here had the same gender as XX does, as they both act as guides for XX's choices.
16 . by: Furrama February 2, 2018, 2:16 pm

I think the he would be the snake wouldn't it? The lovebird shot it, of course they would have noticed it.
15 . by: Seven February 2, 2018, 1:58 pm

Well the lovebird is referred to as "he", but the snake and the polecat could be ladies.
14 . by: Furrama February 2, 2018, 1:52 pm

Maybe they're all girls.
13 . by: Nobody February 2, 2018, 1:31 pm

@12: strangely, i was also thinking about how i really hope this character isn't male. i'm glad i wasn't the only one!
12 . by: February 2, 2018, 1:20 pm

Anybody else really hoping this character is a girl? I'd love it if, if someone else was going to join the long line of people telling Fig facts about herself/reading her, that it wouldn't be another dude...
whatever the case, very charming and attractive features (to me), I adore
11 . by: February 2, 2018, 1:01 pm

judging from the size and markings snek seems to be a black-necked garter snake
10 . by: February 2, 2018, 4:35 am

Would the eye of a painter and her proclivity towards nonrepresentational art lend itself well to Art? ohhh im so excited to see how this develops!
9 . by: bluefan February 2, 2018, 3:16 am

I first thought the new mustelid was the bartender that used style when Smoothie found out about Fig. :P would have been a nice comeback.
we haven't had red yet as speech colour, it's quite ominous....
8 . by: Jen February 2, 2018, 12:09 am

looks like a garter snake but I could be wrong

haha garters and sex workers
7 . by: February 2, 2018, 12:03 am

Can anyone get an ID on the species of snake? My mind keeps going "oh, king cobra" but...
6 . by: February 2, 2018, 12:02 am

zach please do a comic about the bird and the snake
5 . by: Dani February 1, 2018, 11:20 pm

You have much to lean, young Fig-grasshopper!
4 . by: February 1, 2018, 11:17 pm

Yeah I guess his thesis involves mirroring!
3 . by: Furrama February 1, 2018, 10:49 pm

I guess that guy was a snake the whole time?
2 . by: February 1, 2018, 10:23 pm

*places, not perspective, and *makes. Google autocorrect is downright ruthless.
1 . by: February 1, 2018, 10:22 pm

Wonder if Smoothie let this mustelid know that Fig would be coming. Polecat? Love how the two swap perspectives in panels 8-10 like how one would focus past one subject to another with a manual camera focus.
Also a little bit hyped because this page is full of symbolism. Dripping with it. Dang near every update make me kind of shout as I read it.