NofNA, "Syconium" page #187

Syconium
187

July 25th, 2017

46 .	by: Downhill	July 28, 2017, 6:43 am
I actually think Fig and Smoothie are pretty similar characters in a lot of ways, Smoothie has just a lot more chances to show his best side because of his social station. They're both hot, both deeply passionate about their chosen subjects and prone to fits of shouting about them, and both have a lot of deep thoughts. But Fig's passion, sex, is seen as a "threat to social propriety" (page 6), so she has been rejected from society, where Smoothie has thrived. She's learned to keep quiet around other people, and has been stuck in a long-term relationship with someone who respects her and her work very little. She's had some great moments of talking more about her thoughts, but they've been few and far between... I bet she'd be able to deliver speeches to rival Smoothie's if given half the chance!

45 .	by: Bluefan	July 28, 2017, 1:55 am
I've been very interested in this debate. I never really viewed Smoothy as a Gary Stu, he seemed like a superhot, friendly and helpful, but very inexperienced guy. It came out when Fig described the fetishes, and now again when he severely underestimates the situation he is in (considering the "usually not that dangerous" foreshadowing :P). I would only view it as Gary Stueness if he would come out of this encounter unscathed or with ease.

44 .	by: Papeipou	July 27, 2017, 10:37 pm
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to start a whole big debate, lol! I never believed that Zack was or would comment anonymously, I was just complimenting the insight of commenter #8.

43 .	by: Juna	July 27, 2017, 3:48 am
Ah, that's one way to describe it! Thanks Zack.

42 .	by: Zack	July 27, 2017, 3:35 am
Hi Witti, I hope that you will like it. And Juna, The possibilities are too broad for me to resolve all instances of what culture each species contributes to society over 175 years, so I only focus on what is relevant to each story. You can imagine that, just like our civilization, it'd be a lot.

41 .	by: Seven	July 26, 2017, 10:05 pm
Count me as one of those feminists whose has as few issues with the comic, and yet enjoy the comic immensely all the same.

40 .	by: Kai	July 26, 2017, 6:06 pm
Pretty sure most of us here are feminists who enjoy the comic, so I'm gonna echo Furrama and say stop trying to pick fights.

39 .	by: #31	July 26, 2017, 3:35 pm
Continuing my little comment since I was half asleep then and forgot that Fig tends to play the more dominant role and does the biting. But either way, we don't really know exactly what happens behind the curtains and even with a dominance tendency she's still the number one courtesan of the brothel

38 .	by: Furrama	July 26, 2017, 2:00 pm
I am feminist/egalitarian. Even have a Tumblr account. Mostly just reblog pics of raccoons and birds but.... I'm enjoying the comic. Stop trying to pick fights and observe the troubled weasles.

37 .	by:	July 26, 2017, 1:37 pm
looks like someone needs to 1) go outside and 2) maybe try to talk to an actual feminist, haha

36 .	by: Witticaster	July 26, 2017, 12:25 pm
Zach your explanation of the jerboa population crisis makes me love Nutsedge 1000x more and I did not think it would be possible to become even MORE excited for the addendum but BOY I AM

35 .	by:	July 26, 2017, 6:13 am
weekly reminder to not interact with kuu

34 .	by: kuu	July 26, 2017, 5:32 am
#12, you are one of the feminist warriors from tumblr and facebook? I do wonder what the feminists would think of this so far. seeing how to be a good feminist you can't be against sex work(but do be against the porn INDUSTRY with it's abuse and capitalism)

33 .	by: Juna	July 26, 2017, 4:22 am
@Furrama, ah I gotcha. I'd misunderstood what you meant about XX's gender being incidental. Looks like we were agreeing, just differently. And Zach, I hadn't thought too much about species by species treatment in terms of things like that. That's an intriguing angle. Are there any significant artifacts of a particular sort of animals', uh, social structure embedded into society at large? We've heard about the pioneering role of canids, and this story has brought up the sex patterns of rodents in a proposed founding theory of Society.

32 .	by: Furrama	July 26, 2017, 3:21 am
@Zach That's... a lot less cliche a backstory for Nutsedge than I thought it was, (I gave it a pass since everything all had to be relayed on only one page all broken and whatnot). So... when's that Addendum coming out? (Soon™?) (I guess hyenas would be interesting to hang around in this world... or put two species with radically different views/instincts on men/women and see how they interact. Human society is tough enough and we're only one species.)

31 .	by:	July 26, 2017, 3:09 am
on the subject on wether Fig liking rough/dominant sex is right or not in gender roles in this society: most animal sex involves the male biting or grabbing the female while he does the dirty. I don't think, a least for mustelids, that a woman being into biting and rough play would be unusual at all since it's kinda the norm. The thing with Fig is that her paraphilia is biting, but it seems like her fetish has evolved into something more dangerous with it leaving two chomped victims now. There's also that thing where it appears she's left a bite 'mark' on every sexual partner she's had.

30 .	by: Zack	July 26, 2017, 3:01 am
Hi Furrama, As Downhill says, 10%+, which takes place approximately 50 years before this story, displayed that society is more egalitarian towards the sexes. (The rodent often seen to the side of the judge during the trial scenes is also a female.) I often do not specify the sexes of characters, because, they could be either one. I have noticed that, unlike the way the gender role in our society is portrayed, female animals are often just as aggressive and zealous as male ones, if not moreso. (I'm thinking of "Marion the Barbarian" from Wolf Park here.) Nutsedge's plight in Secretary was less that she was a woman and more that she was a long-eared jerboa, a species which, at the time of production, was regarded as endangered. I imagined that this idea of "there's not a lot of us around" surreptitiously worked its way into their culture and created a pall that was meant to stop women from expressing "dangerous" dreams which could lead to their demise. The main tactic she employed to convince her parents to let her join the college was that she could use it to find a mate. This idea is made more clear in the Secretary Addendum. Her rat friend and "Chipper" (resting in the advanced class foyer), two other female characters of much more populous species, did not have this problem. Because of this, I imagine that the treatment varies species-to-species more than it does society-to-society, and even era-to-era. P.S. I would never pretend to be another person here on my own website. I realize that this is an accepted tactic in today's modern social media internet, but I'm old-fashioned in this respect, and I don't hold it in high regard.

29 .	by: Downhill	July 26, 2017, 2:18 am
10%+ definitely had women in higher roles in society. Fiat was an intelligent HIOT member who was able to make a great standing in court, and Quintet was studying for a government position under pressure from her family- implying that it was normal for a woman then. I wonder if things degraded since then, or was there always an undercurrent of "women should have BABIES!!" that the 10%+ ladies were just in a good position to ignore.

28 .	by: Furrama	July 26, 2017, 1:31 am
It's taking me way too long to type out these answers every time I do there's three more comments. I need to not do this on my phone anymore, it takes me too long. Sometimes the comment/preview buttons disappear and I get to play "glitch the text box and pray they come back".

27 .	by: Furrama	July 26, 2017, 1:23 am
@Juna Oh for sure, I just don't think it's a main focus like a couple of people were inferring. I think story wise a male version of XX could work, but some of the symbolism would have to be radically transformed. Figs, mother wasps, pregnancy, birth, a lot of that is very female coded. So when I say I don't think the story has dealt much with gender roles in society I mean exactly that. Gender/sex as a concept defiantly is there. But we don't have a Nutsedge "You are to raise a family like the woman you are" underpinning to Fig's character. I'm sure that there must still be that undercurrent in this age of this animal society, even this far away from Secretary's time, but I haven't seen it in this story, I don't believe. We have seen racism for sure, but I'm not sure I have seen even passive aggressive sexism. Or am I incorrect? Hey Zach, if you can answer, where is this society on things like women in high positions, like parliament? Or in other types of work/relationships? What about in 10%? Does it vary much from societal group to societal group, species to species, era to era? Was Nutsedge really cutting against the grain in her time? URL : http://www.nofna.com/?T=1-1-12-281

26 .	by:	July 26, 2017, 1:08 am
Furrama: The "this usually isn't that dangerous" line is xtreme foreshadowing bait too :D

25 .	by:	July 26, 2017, 1:05 am
Juna, you said it better than I could, just because it's not directly talked about by the characters doesn't mean there isn't a clear gender bias in the society and characters. Piggybacking off what you brought up, I've wondered whether part of XX's issues about rough sexual play have to do with those traditional male/female, dominant/passive expectations. Basically: girls aren't supposed to get off on dominance/violence, they're supposed to be passive and submissive, therefore she's bad/wrong for liking it and so it's something she should try to suppress or at least dislike about herself. How would she feel about herself and her sexuality without those expectations?

24 .	by: Juna	July 26, 2017, 1:02 am
On that note, I like Smoothie too, don't have much against him. His introduction as being the guy Who Just Wants to Talk is sorta played out, but either way I think he'll end up being a functional character, propelling XX's development along. In one way, it's realistic that someone else might have to guide XX along out of her disempowered and psychologically distressed state; that's what psychologists are supposed to help with. It's just narratively speaking a little disappointing right now, because of course we want to see XX finally be able to define herself.

23 .	by: Furrama	July 26, 2017, 12:55 am
I just noticed I said (E) instead of (S) in my last post woooooops. I do kind of want (S)XY to screw up too, or at least have a wedge driven between them for conflict purposes. I do think that he might be in over his head here, but he doesn't know it yet. I don't think Mirror Fig's gonna let him wake up unscathed. The "You like him?" line was just too freaky to not have a follow up.

22 .	by: Juna	July 26, 2017, 12:53 am
Far as I've seen, Zack always makes his presence clear, and never misses the chance to compliment fanart. That's besides the point of course, ha. And yea @Furrama, while the current comic's about sex, it hasn't really openly addressed gender roles and how they factor into XX's current society. However, while I think it's certainly possible for the prejudice against sex to cut across gender, we've seen the majority of powerful roles in this society to be filled by males, while the focus of those who suffer under inequality has been with the women in the story. Greenie and Acai confirm that the brothel courtesans include men too, but their time being at the end of leash is mostly implied, off comic. But, more to the point, the dynamics we've seen discussed about sexuality, of dominant and passive, are closely tied in with that male/female template. Again, gender hasn't been openly discussed in the comic, but I'd wonder if XX's preoccupation with making her image her masterpiece wouldn't change in meaning if she weren't female. A male XX could work but I suspect the focus for what'd be considered sexy for that character would be different. Or maybe it wouldn't and we'd see an equally interesting story play out about a male artist whose society is pressuring him to a role of submission! My point being, I think it really would be different if XX's, or Smoothie and Greenie's genders were different. The comic already taps into the almost for-granted binaries we've learned to question in our society: male/female, dom/sub, active/passive, light/void. Heck, if you know anything about the meaning of the yin-yang symbol, it's both a metaphysical division of pairs, and their ultimate co-reliance. I don't mean to say that those are ultimate truths, either, just that they're pervasive dualities in our culture, and that Syconium's drawing from them.

21 .	by: ???	July 26, 2017, 12:36 am
Thank you, Witticaster! I also think Smoothie's gonna mess up and that will be extremely interesting, and I'm sure very satisfying. This comic's been going on for a good while, and the short, bi-weekly format might make it seem like Smoothie is hogging the story, but I just don't think that's true. I haven't noticed the story delving into his problems; it's all about Fig. When this is finished I don't think the issue people are worried about will be noticeable.

20 .	by: nik	July 26, 2017, 12:13 am
Has Zack ever gone anon in the comments though? :0 (His comments also always start with 'Dear Such-n-such' and its usually very formal. I wonder if hes a dad because he types very much like a dad over 40 haha)

19 .	by: Witticaster	July 26, 2017, 12:13 am
17, you have a good point... she is obviously getting nowhere with her current strategies so SOME kind of outside force needs to jolt her out of her homeostasis. But yeah, I can't deny... in this story of deeply flawed, selfish, and broken characters, Smoothie does seem over-the-top with seemingly endless talent, selflessness, and virtue. But that will only make it more satisfying when his vices and limitations are finally revealed!

18 .	by: Dani	July 26, 2017, 12:11 am
I'm not sure I agree with some of the comment points on this page re Smoothie, still processing them, but I am glad I read them. Interesting perspectives!

17 .	by: ???	July 25, 2017, 11:56 pm
I've gone through times in the story where I've actively disliked Fig, because I've been extremely close with people like her and ended up cutting them out of my life because they hurt me very much. She's sick but not innocent. Fig absolutely needs this help from a professional who isn't in the same boat as her. Fig's co-workers can't save her, and while only she can save herself in the end, Smoothie and friends will just be instrumental in her getting there- like in real life. I think Smoothie is a good character and he's important to the story and to Fig, just like all of Zach's characters. He won't eclipse her, he's just part of what's happening.

16 .	by: Botany	July 25, 2017, 11:54 pm
@12? You're on point. I'm going to admit I've only skimmed past where I last left off, but even with that, I saw much of what you just articulated. I as just responding to #6 really when I posted 8.

15 .	by: Witticaster	July 25, 2017, 11:48 pm
Amazing how much emotion can come out of those semitransparent squares. I imagine JPGCompressionFig's movements as slowed-down and weightless-looking, like someone walking on the moon. Does anyone else ever feel that way when they try to walk (or especially run) during dreams? I will be absolutely tickled pink if EstrusMinotaurFig ends up successfully seducing Smoothie, here in the domain where she's most powerful. RG's prediction will finally come true.

14 .	by: Furrama	July 25, 2017, 11:47 pm
I don't think that this story has dealt much with gender roles though. Secretary did a bit, but with Fig/XX her gender has been pretty incidental. Males work in the wards in the same capacity, and face the same discrimination. I think that (E)XY being male and attractive has more to do with him being a temptation for Fig. If she was into females he probably would be female. And I am 100% certain that he won't "save" her. Given the nature of her ailment she will have to save herself. He's been the rope, but she has to climb. I am 100% okay with a dude helping a woman out, and being a real true goody two shoes as long as he doesn't expect he is due anything afterwards.

13 .	by: Botany	July 25, 2017, 11:44 pm
No @11. If it was Zach daring to reveal these things so boldly, he would have been more Eloquent when speaking of it. I may be wrong, and I'm just grasping at straws here. @8? I guess it is. I would like to think as much but in hindsight, I must admit something: How much better would our own world could've been if we took so much more than what was offered to us in that gilded era of supposed purity? If men of power back then could have been so bold as to not dismiss what contributions could've been? Instead of the culture war we see now on the internet dividing good people apart for misunderstandings, we could have had a unifying force that sees past the subjective definition of the establishments and known an objective narrative to combat it against. And maybe we're on our way there, but imagine if our ancestors were above their hubris and allowed greater things under their rule than the path they had set us on. And maybe, along with something else I wish, Fig well end up after this an equal in society within her own time. Not just a pitied tag along on the coat tails of a gentleman's culture.

12 .	by:	July 25, 2017, 11:33 pm
@8... with all due respect, I don't think that's why most people are getting upset at Smoothie. We KNOW the society is backward. That's what makes XX's struggle so poignant and compelling. Nobody gets mad because stories have evil villains. My issue, and I suspect many other's issue, is that a character with only a few panels of prior screentime has suddenly swooped in 3/4ths of the way through the story and Changed Everything. Smoothie has engulfed the story so thoroughly that he has even become the POV character now - even though the setting is INSIDE XX'S OWN MIND! Not only that, he is, so far, a rampant Gary Stu who one-ups our main character in nearly every way, leaving her to sit and nod her head and beg for his endless wisdom. He's super hot, AND he magically has the willpower to resist XX's irresistible allure, AND he's an art aficionado who knows way more about the art scene and art value than the ACTUAL ARTIST, AND he's SO smart about sex research that he effortlessly talks over & down to someone who has made a LIVING in sex, AND he's a metanoia-using psychologist who can conveniently go into XX's head to visualize her struggle firsthand. Who wants to take bets whether he will provide the crucial psychological breakthrough that lets her reconcile her psyche? So, yeah. I'm not mad at the society. I'm mad because the fascinating story of XX's struggles seems to have been bait-and-switched into Tales of the Perfect Undergrad. The paternalistic sexism & classism of Smoothie's savior role is just the icing on the shit cake. Like, really, he's a sweet guy. But I won't be sad if Estrus!Fig or Greenie give him the axe in the near future. I want XX to be the one in charge of her own fate... not some rich savior figure.

11 .	by: Papeipou	July 25, 2017, 10:00 pm
@8: Are you Zack but anonymous? lol! Really amazing insight. Love this shifting and undefined representation of inner XX. This is who she is right now, leading him the the seed of the realized XX, and to the monster estrus. A personification of her own abstraction and pursuit of "capture."

10 .	by: Budgie	July 25, 2017, 9:10 pm
@8 Wonderful analysis, truly.

9 .	by: Seven	July 25, 2017, 9:07 pm
@6 I agree, but I do like Smoothie anyway. At least he's not the "jerk" character here to knock the female character down a few pegs, while being passed off as a "love interest". (re: Joss Whedon's aborted take on Steve Trevor and Wonder Woman: blech!) This guy is genuinely interested in helping her.

8 .	by:	July 25, 2017, 8:49 pm
What we are looking at is basically NofNA's gilded victorian age with strongly defined gender roles for what's expected of either sex and the consequences that befall both. Fig's mother was a straight up "Respectable Lady". Fig herself is the child that rebelled against good societal teachings and is now being put in her place by the world at large for not being "A Good Woman". Greenie has probably lived most of his childhood as a Catamite and now, as an adult, is practicing what his pimps and past lecherous old clients preached to him as How Things Are Because It's Expected. And then along comes Sigmund Freud, barely knowing a damn thing of what he's doing or how the future will expand upon and sometimes discredit the notions that began the field of 20th century psychology for NofNA. And of course he's in this position because of course he's male so of course he faces less backlash from a society that would've ended him if he was a her. If it upsets you that he's in a privileged position to try exploring the same things that had Fig shunned from Art & Schooling, then that is the point. We are obviously facing a backwards society. Things are going to happen as such because of the opportunities that were given to some and held back from others. Great White Saviors & Good Male Heros are problematic now because civil rights movements have established a mild sense of Egalitarianism in the general populace. Fig's society doesn't have that sense of equality so unfortunately, because noone's going to listen to sex workers that have been held back from even being able to articulate their desire to be Real Live People, some pioneer from the uppercrust is gonna have to speak on their behalf. I'd just like to think it's realistically fucked up for good reason.

7 .	by:	July 25, 2017, 8:20 pm
I think Smoothie might get lost in here. I could honestly see the next page being a scene change as they lose communication with him.

6 .	by:	July 25, 2017, 7:51 pm
Tenka: most of the people who dislike Smoothie think that as well, and it's WHY they dislike him- in a story of a woman's struggles with a largely female cast, a man yet again gets to be the hero instead of one of the women. So close, no cigar.

5 .	by: Tenka	July 25, 2017, 4:58 pm
I'm fully convinced Smoothie is a pure hearted hero, I'm also expecting to laugh reading one of the next few pages. I hope.

4 .	by: Furrama	July 25, 2017, 2:29 pm
"There's something you need to see."

3 .	by:	July 25, 2017, 10:16 am
puts on a beret and slaps a bongo these squares are accosting my style, man

2 .	by: kuu	July 25, 2017, 7:08 am
pixel XX is leading him to white fig estrus monster?

1 .	by: Juna	July 25, 2017, 3:18 am
Silph Scope that ghost, Smoothie! I dig spirit XX's Bauhaus kinda look here: URL : http://www.designhistory.org/Bauhaus_pages/images_bauhaus/Bauahus_logo_Schlemmer.gif